#transmisogyny

[katrafiy]

now more than ever I think it's important for people to remember that puberty blockers *were* the compromise position.

if you start from a position that trans people should have equal rights in society, then it becomes obvious that all the faux concern about "irreversible changes" is utter bs, because puberty itself is irreversible, and these people want all trans people to be forced to go through the wrong one

the people calling for our healthcare to be banned don't give a single solitary fuck about the "irreversible changes" that they want every single trans person to be forcibly subjected to

[veryveryvomit]

The prioritization of men's issues always comes with the insistence that they're actually being ignored in favour of women's issues. Theres pages on pages written on men's suicide rates and male loneliness that cite studies in which the data for women show an equal or even greater rate of the same problems. Thousands of reddit threads about trans men being ignored while trans women get their posts taken down for the same thing. The illusion of men being ignored or treated badly in feminist spaces is nothing but the visceral reaction people have to seeing a man not being treated as the most important person in the room for 2 seconds.

[slur-hoarder]

99% of the time when a transmasc says this its because they dont view trans women as real women. they see us as womanish men, we're "genderfuck" because we put an artifical feminine affect on top of our, in their eyes, immutably male bodies. their attitudes toward us are identical to transmisogynistic caricatures, they just think that the caricature is "goals."

theyre literally just saying "i wish i was seen as biologically male, like trans women"

no wonder they can't elaborate why without sounding stupid.

[molsno]

also it annoys me that when trans men complain about how bad it feels to be excluded from women's spaces now that they're recognized as men, they're often met with sympathy, and many women's spaces make an exception for them because biological essentialism matters more to them than anything else. meanwhile, when trans women express sorrow over having been excluded from even something as minute as friend groups of all girls, we just get shrugged at and told to get over it. meanwhile we're still excluded from women's spaces. it's almost like there's a systemic form of oppression that specifically targets transfems or something.

[soup-mother]

I feel like a lot of those "if you assume when people talk about women they're not including trans women then that's on you" type posts were made to fucking gaslight trans women while patting themselves on the back for allyship.

you know a lot of the time we can't actually tell when someone is including us right? like yea it's annoying when ppl tack us on after the fact but it's like...... you do understand you need to do more than just "obviously include trans women" right?

now when you say "don't assume someone talking negatively about men is actually talking about trans women" are you even slightly able to understand WHY we might be weary of people doing that? do you even slightly consider what things sound like transmisogynistic dogwhistles? or is this a 'i don't have to consider how anything i could ever say might be confused for crypto terf shit because it should be inherently obvious i support trans women' type thing?

like i feel that point is just straight up fucking lost on people talking on behalf of us, yall would fucking turn your backs on us in a fucking second too, don't pretend you wouldn't.

you KNOW why trans women hear "men" and think trans women, it's because a lot of people say "men" and MEAN trans women. you KNOW you know that, you're not that fucking dense. stop patting yourself on the back for being obtuse about it

[punkeropercyjackson]

@moonage-gaydream

you have to love trans women more than you hate transmisogynists. and i mean real trans women, not this abstract symbol you've created just to defend. the real flesh and blood human beings who are messy and complex and imperfect. you have to love them even when they fall outside of your preconceived idea of what a "good" trans woman must be, when they're doing femininity "wrong" or "not enough", when they understand themselves in terms you find unintuitive, when they're rubbing against your understanding of what a woman should and can be. you have to support the trans women in your life and you have to be kind to the ones you meet and you have to respect the ones on the internet. otherwise you're not helping, you're just using them to play hero.

[soup-mother]

noooo this serial transmisogynistic callout stirrer and sexual harasser of trans women is actually just a small bean, you obviously just hate them because of [identity] and not because they keep calling trans women incestuous pedophiles every few months 👍

[gremlingirlsmell]

if you have ever called a transfem a baeddel and/or believe in transandrophobia, you are part of a reactionary transmisogynistic hate group

[certifiedsexed]

hey there! i don’t mean this in bad faith at all, and i’m not trying to use a term that’s a fascist dogwhistle. i promise i’m just confused😭

so i’m not a guy, nor have i ever been perceived as one, but in one of your recent posts, you said that men can’t experience oppression solely based on the fact that they’re men. which was kind of confusing to me — i don’t think you’re wrong, i think it’s me but i don’t know how to get to how you see it like that.

because in my experience, men can experience oppression because they’re men, although i don’t know if i’m saying that right or conflating the meanings of certain terms. i’m probably wrong, and would just love some clarification?

for example, my brother and i were always held to different standards growing up — it was expected of me to always cry and be emotional, and i was a ‘stone cold bitch’ if that wasn’t the case, but if my brother wanted to show negative emotions like sadness he was treated like there was something wrong with him too. and i know it wasn’t my brother — i spend a lot of time working with my high school’s diversity team, and in a lot of the events we organise, guys talk about how they feel enormous pressure to be angry and never sad, and to have stereotypically masculine interests and never deviate from that norm.

i also know men who’ve struggled to get jobs such as teaching as those are viewed as ‘female’ jobs and it’s a common view that men who want those jobs are ‘only in it to be around kids’. i’ve heard many women around me perpetuate sentiments like that, so i know they’re not making it up, even if it isn’t equal to the systematic oppression women face in almost every aspect of their careers.

i’m not providing these examples to prove you wrong, since i do think you’re right. i’m hoping that a window into the way i’ve always thought might help you clarify this in a way that can help me to change my mind, since i just think i’m lacking some clarity or context here. i think i’m conflating abuse and stereotypes with oppression, but i’m really not sure. any advice would be really appreciated!

i’m so sorry if this comes off badly, i don’t mean it that way. i’m just trying to learn, i promise i’m not trying to promote the kind of hate and close mindedness you’ve been seeing in your inbox as of late.

Hi! As always, I do not mind answering genuine questions!

The things you're talking about growing up and seeing boys around you pressured to present only certain emotions, that's part of the patriarchy!

Certain emotions are supposed to be "feminine" and thus boys shouldn't show them, while girls are often always considered "emotional" in some fashion. That's not oppression based on those boys being men that you're talking about.

It's the backlash that the patriarchy, and by addition trans/misogyny has on men. It's boys being pressured not to show certain emotions because those emotions are "feminine" and they're supposed to associate feminimity with weakness and shit.

What you're talking about there is also trans/misogyny!

The idea that men who do things perceived as feminine are predators, the idea that specific jobs are "female" jobs [while even in those specific female jobs, men are generally paid better and find it easier to get into those jobs than women trying to get into traditionally "male" jobs"]

[Though obviously this varies based on race and whether they're trans, etc, etc.]

To be a little more clear, all of the things you're talking about don't primarily affect cis men/boys. They fuck up transfems, because it's trans/misogyny.

You're right! It's not systemic oppression.

You might wonder if it's social oppression, which is also a no. Social oppression would require a historical/systemic oppression behind it. But that doesn't exist in this case.

What it is is the common issue oppressors run into. While they benefit greatly from oppression, there is also backlash they face from their own systems of oppression.

Like white people who fall into suicide cults trying to work towards white supremacy, or TERFs who fall into groups where they slowly pick each other off as they discover they're not all exactly the same and wind up accusing each other of not being "real" women, systems of bigotry simply do not work out perfectly even for the oppressors.

They never do.

To create the patriarchy, you must establish trans/misogyny, you must establish intersexism and you must push people to conform to those ideals, even if they hurt your own.

It's similar to how white supremacy can harm white people, despite white people obviously not being oppressed racially. The backlash of oppression hits even the oppressors sometimes.

Suppression, as a term, would honestly work far better to describe what you're talking about.

So yes, it's stereotyping, yes it's abusive to tell your children not to show/feel their emotions but it's not oppression based on these guys in your life being men! It's part of how trans/misogyny, transphobia and intersexism are enforced.

I understand exactly where you're coming from! It doesn't sound bad and I genuinely don't mind answering questions! Especially since you've got some good ones!

I'm not sure if I rambled too much to explain this properly but I hope this helps! Let me know if you have any other questions and/or need me to clarify anything here. <33

[konjak-jelly]

[0w0tsuki]

One thing this recent bile that's been spewed at me is just how reactionary the "Transandrophobia" movement is.

Oh hey look it's everyone's favorite transandro bro looking to coddle the dude who called me a "Deranged Hysterical Screeching Wailing Pro Cop Pro Eugenics Victim Racist Ableist Cunt Bitch" because I said "hey don't lie about my friend being a fascist who who wants to genocide nonvoters. No where in her post did she say that where did you even get that?"

The post that's supposedly downplaying transmascs anxiety specifically

Like the most hostility your from this is an irritation at the notion that this is the end of all life forever for trans people. No where is she attempting to downplay the risk. The summary of her statement is "Things are tough. They've been tough before. Don't lose hope and let others control you. There are options even in seemingly hopeless situations and maybe don't kill yourself a". A statement which doesn't call any group out in particular because it's addressed to ALL trans people who are concerned about the election and their hormone access.

And this is the sentiment I've seen from all the trans girls who have been talking about it. Nowhere have I seen transfems attempt to use this as a way to belittle AFABs specifically for being afraid cause guess what? WE'RE SCARED TOO. These posts are an address to a giant of doomerism about the elections that "I'm going to die because Trump is going to take away my hormones and Death before Detransition".

For a group who so commonly accuses trans women being self obsessed and wanting every discourse to be about us, they are incapable of even considering that we might address our own in this. Not only can they not conceive the notion that these are positivity posts meant to elicit hope, they are convinced that we are using this to attack and belittle them specifically. Because in their mind ONLY AFAB people are expressing concerns about being jailed for being trans. Cause it's not like, you know, this is all about an election where the PROGRESSIVES candidate had a history with throwing trans women in men's prisons. What do trans women have to fear of prisons? For a group whose half of their rhetoric is "it's not all about you" they are unable to even fathom that they are not the only ones scared of going to jail for being trans.

You can't even argue this is a straw man because that would imply that there's some fringe Transfem legitimately arguing this that they are using as representative of us as a whole. It can't be a straw man because that would require the physical material of straw to construct it from. They are reverse engineering what our opinion must be from their preconceived notions of us. They are boxing at shadows.

That's why there's no "Unity" with these guys. For all the big game they talk about it they don't WANT unity with us. What they WANT is a bitch to yell at and take the blame whenever something goes wrong in their community. They WANT their whipping girl. I am surely convinced that even if there were no "beaddels", that trans women just shut up about their own oppression forever, these dudes would still be out here twisting the most banal positivity posts aimed at the wider community by trans women, and finding ways to spin it as us attacking them specifically.

[jerrycummblr]

It's really simple. If you're born with a vagina and you naturally have elevated testosterone levels, you're a man. If you have a vagina and you take testosterone, you're a woman. But also if you have a vagina, you'll never be a man. But also if you have higher testosterone then you were never a woman. Woman never yes man a vagina testosterone no was an elevated. Vagina man.

[bisexualgenderfemme]

while some ppl do mean it as malgendering that's actually a really uncharitable way to read that phrase, esp ur use of 'inherent' in the tags.

we live under a patriarchal society, the way Men (as a class) affirm gender is through misogyny, and through defining themselves as The Opposite of women (particularly Not a trans woman.) Much the same way gay men can direct homophobia at "more gay" gay men as means to affirm their place in the patriarchy & claw back little bits of status, & the same way cis women can direct misogyny at other women as means to affirm themselves in the hierarchical structure of our society, trans men can weaponize misogyny & transphobia to affirm their gender. (the same way trans ppl can weaponize anti-transmasculinity / transandrophobia)

that phrase doesn't 'inherently' mean that trans men become shittier people when they transition, it's a structural statement: trans men are structurally incentivized to weaponize misogyny, especially transmisoginy, as means to define their gender as Men as a class. This is not the only way to affirm gender as a trans man, it's not inherent, but it is something that is absolutely a factor due to the society we live in. to say otherwise is to say that you are also inherently incapable of these things. that somehow trans men are the only group not incentivized to weaponize phobias & isms & etc. We absolutely are, just like anyone else is.

This is obvious to me as someone who spends time with both trans mascs & trans femmes (& ppl who don't fit either.) I am repeatedly offered moments to choose The Boys over trans women, to define myself as unlike them, to use misogyny to distance myself from them, & this mimics how women as a whole are treated.

Yes, obviously, trans men do not have the structural power that cis men have. but that's exactly why some trans men weaponize misogyny & trans misogyny, to define themselves as close to it as possible.

"Oh so we're not allowed to say 'trans men are men' anymore? So you think they're women? You're a transphobe?"

What they actually said: "Ugh, gross, trans men really are the men of the trans community."

Times like this are when I need more people to be aware of the term "malgendering," the kind of transphobia where someone validates a trans person's gender identity just to use it against them. We can all tell all you're doing is applying your negative stereotypes of cis men to trans men, and it's not transphobic to call you out on it. Trans men do not become shittier people when they transition and you are awful for implying they do.

[soup-mother]

i still find that "here's things lesbians and trans women have in solidarity" post where half of them are things lesbian communities accuse trans women of and exclude us over kinda grimly funny, real "these two opressions are exactly the same so we're all in this together, please ignore the knife in your back" moment.

or like yeah it sucks that tme lesbians have been given a reputation for being transmisogynistic¹ but uh... there are historical and current reasons for that lol like i promise you "this community excludes and is weird about trans women" isn't a reputation that comes out of nowhere, it kinda was a big splitting point of the yankee feminist movement even.

getting assumed to be transphobic isn't great but inherently feeling unwelcome by default in lesbian spaces is worse, especially when ppl are more scared of being called transphobic than of actually being transphobic that they'll take you pointing out an issue in the community you are part of as a planned attack and then label you an "outside agressor" with zero self awareness.

1 (and no, that study that showed cis lesbians weren't transphobic but because they were accepting of trans guys doesn't change the transmisogyny)

[euniexenoblade]

One of the most evil lies nothorses and his merry band of transandrodorks ever spread is the idea that baeddel thought has taken over the LGBT community. The idea fringe trans women have somehow conquered the entirety of politics of a group of mostly cis people is just insane. If we had that kind of social capital, would transmisogyny even exist? This desire to separate the bad trannies from our good wholesome Christian males transwomen is very telling.

[gremlingirlsmell]

so many people misconstrue us explaining the circumstances of transmisogyny of what is currently materially happening to us. as us saying it is what ought to be. that's how terms like tma/tme get misconstrued as us trying to fit people into boxes and shit, or how we get called every -phobia under the sun for saying to be transfem you need to have been camab. no, we're just describing a system of opression affecting us

but, real talk? they know this! they do this on purpose! they use it as a rhetorical sleight of hand, also to paint us as just as bad as hate groups seeking our complete eradication because we dared to bring up men having structural power over women in a patriarchal society. they just hate trans women! they're doing it on purpose. they are staying ignorant on purpose, so they can validate their vibes based reactionary (trans)misogynistic worldview